Cesela
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Post by Cesela on May 9, 2016 7:26:20 GMT
Well. This forum escalated quickly. Haha. The first time I had my period I was sleeping over at a friends, and I honest to god thought something was wrong with me so I hid it from my mom. I went about thinking I was going to die. There is definitely a large difference about knowing about it in theory and experiencing it. Periods are a horrifying thing. Theres a reason grown up men still cringe away from the subject. That said, though the entire thing might be funny, it is really overused in the fandoms. Once read a fic that was entirely too obsessed with period cramps and all the character did was moping around indoors in bed in pain and required all sorts of painrelief. Turned me off, regardless of how well it was written. Some moderation please.
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Post by ichthyophobia on May 9, 2016 17:57:15 GMT
I agree that a lot of the fem!Shinichi stuff comes off as liking the pairing but not wanting them to be gay, especially in the pairing with Kaito. Which is obnoxious, because half of what I like about slash is the idea of "meeting as social equals" where there's no assumption that either partner is stronger or better or in charge because of their gender. Social construct, yes, but what we think turns into what we write turns into really obnoxious rom-com tropes. Not the best reason to like slash, but there we go. But anyway, speaking as if he's born female, not spontaneously switched: as much as I agree that gender is a largely social construct, I don't think it would leave his characterization totally unchanged - after all, we are in fact social animals. I think he'd end up more aware of emotions, even to a small degree, just because he'd be expected to express them more - there wouldn't be a "be masculine" pressure not to feel or show them. It would definitely change his relationship with Ran and Sonoko. I think he'd be way closer to them than he currently is - I mean, the whole point of childhood friends shipping like that is that they started as friends before the whole hormones thing came into the picture - and if they weren't expected to exclude him from certain activities because of his gender, they'd include him in WAY more. Sleepovers, shopping trips, etc. He'd be more aware of girly stuff like that just because he'd have had more opportunity to be into it. And heck, if he likes it, he can like it! I can totally see female-him as the sort of person who tries to pretend that friendship bracelet from the third grade is no big deal but wears it constantly. And he in-canon already has to pay a ton of attention to appearance - half the clues he sees in people are appearance-based - so if he didn't have a social pressure to avoid stuff like makeup for himself I can see him at least learning the basics of it. I can see him still avoiding it, in the same way that Satou-keiji and Sera do, because looking girly is a fast track to not being taken seriously in some environments, and I think detective work is one of them. So yes, basic stuff - pride, detective, etc - would be largely the same. Some stuff, like his "yes I can do this I am independent hear me roar" level of pride might even be magnified, because he *has* to take himself seriously or no one else will. I definitely can't see him/her fainting into the arms of the ~mysterious handsome phantom thief~ in any case. Because that's Sonoko's job. But seriously, though, what I'd be interested in seeing is not so much how the genderswap would change Shinichi as how being from fem!Shinichi's point of view would change how topics and other characters are approached and the overall narrative feeling of the story. Like, I know a lot of people try to stick with the same sort of POV-feeling as the actual manga/anime - where Sonoko's an idiot and makeup is only considered a serious thing when you can wear someone else's face with it and any mention of fashion is a literal punchline - from a male author's point of view, through a male character's point of view, intended for a largely male audience. Where girly things are sort of casually assumed to be funny or inferior. But if we're looking at the story through the perspective of someone who didn't have that automatic assumption, then it seems to reason that that POV would change. I don't mean like, hearts-and-sparkles shoujou feeling here, because it's not that kind of series, and gender frankly isn't that kind of dichotomy. But like, when I was writing Deduction by Fusae, I had to treat the girly stuff very seriously, because it was Sonoko's POV, and I couldn't treat fashion or makeup as a punchline because she would never treat them as one, but when I was writing Kudo Will Die I could and did treat them that way because it was Kogoro's POV and he absolutely would think of them like that. I know not everyone puts that kind of thought into narrative voice, but it seems like at the very least we would get more dimensional views of both Ran and Sonoko, because if the POV character has a deeper understanding of them and relationship with them that should be reflected in the narrative. Seems like whenever I read fem!Shinichi stuff (not often) Ran and Sonoko are treated pretty much the same way they are in the show, or less - like, Ran doesn't even get her token "I'm a love interest" appearance that she does in canon or her token "I'm not a love interest, just friends, no worries about me" scene that she usually gets in slash stuff. They're usually only mentioned in passing, if at all. Which doesn't seem right, considering that they are literally his/her best friends at start of series before Hattori shows up. I agree on the periods thing being annoying in fic, but frankly whenever that pops up I immediately nope out because I've too often seen it used as a "oh hey the friend got her period and the main character didn't OH GOSH SHE'S PREGNANT somebody break out the obligatory copy of What to Expect When You're Expecting" trope. Frankly, what I'd like to see is an across-the-board gender swap with minimal changes to personality. Not just Shinichi and Kaito being girls, I mean. EVERYONE. Give me tiny-fireball-detective Hattori and smitten-friendzoned-but-genuinely-nice-guy Kazuha, Karate master and surprisingly amazing at cooking Ran, still-loves-fashion Sonoko where everyone's like "are you sure he's not gay? are you SURE? really?". I want to see Agasa being an awesome "you're amazing because you're you and not because you look a certain way" role model to impressionable baby girls Mitsuhiko and Genta, who are completely ready to back up boy Ayumi that boys can totally like pink if they want and insist that Kamen Yaiba transcends all barriers. I want Gin and Vodka being "eff your stupid gender stereotypes, I have a gun!" and Vermouth as a total James Bond, still being sexy at people to get his/her way and wearing catsuits and driving motorcycles. Let's see female Toichi having to be "I'm not the lovely assistant I AM THE MAGICIAN" and blowing everyone away, and still pulling off that awesome falling-glider rescue on male phantom thief Chikage. How about female Hakuba taking down some jerk at a con who insisted he/she couldn't crossplay as Sherlock Holmes by pretty much BEING Sherlock Holmes. Lets see all our lovely characters breaking rules and proving that you can be awesome regardless of gender. I know it's not the point of this thread but it sounds pretty much beyond awesome to me.
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TinyTantei
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Post by TinyTantei on May 9, 2016 20:25:41 GMT
@ Cesela: Literally everybody cringes away from the topic, and I understand embracing it to an extent ("Biology is biology, there's no need to have a social stigma on a bodily function!"), but at the same time yeah, it's, like.....it's unsanitary, so of course people would be wary about talking about it. Like, when people start talking about blood in any way, shape or form that isn't a murder (fictional or realistic), I get squicked out, regardless of what the topic is. Also, I don't know if that "knowing in theory/experiencing it" thing was aimed at me, and I definitely don't want to be presumptuous, but I know all too well what periods can be like, haha. I do have my time of the month, I've just never dealt with the "excruciating pain, I'm going to die" cramps that everybody says they have. For me, at most it's a headache or two and terrible, horrible mood swings. @ Ichthy: LAUGHS. That's a really good way to put it, Ichthy. I've never seen/done the "social equals" thing myself - if just because, unless I'm strictly writing about a female character feeling societal pressures, I put on my rose-colored glasses and pretend everything's hunky-dory with the characters' beliefs of gender equality when, realistically, that wouldn't be the case - I see where you're coming from. Personally, it's the whole heteronormatization of the whole thing (like, the fandom is pretty even on "seme/uke gay fetishizing" and "genderbending to make a gay couple straight" sides), but there's a lot of things that go into the whole gender/sexuality debate that need to be addressed, honestly. Yeah, I see what you're saying. I guess a better phrasing would be that he/she would be relatively the same (not completely), maybe complying a bit more to a feminine side without delving too much into the "I'm a girl, so I must be super girly and do super girly things" stereotype, haha. An entirely gender-swapped cast would be awesome, honestly. Except for the part where literally everybody and their mother (father now) would be considered a social outcast in a traditional Japanese society, but y'know, that's also something to consider. If everybody deviates from the norm, is the norm still actually the norm? ALSO @ Boogum: This wasn't mentioned before, and I didn't realize it, but gender dysphoria is a thing, and if you're going to be playing around with turning Shinichi into a female when he was a cisgender male before, it'd be best to do a little research on that if you haven't yet.
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Post by dreamingfifi on May 9, 2016 20:28:51 GMT
Oh gosh, this thread! I actually wrote a short essay on this topic a few years ago that touched on almost all of the points in this thread: dreamingfifi.dreamwidth.org/8376.htmlI struggle with reading Fem!Shinichi stories most of the time because they brush over too many rant buttons. My wife is transgender, and every freaking time I read on of these I feel like smashing my keyboard with my face, I get so mad. Some of it is the really skeevy "No Homo!" that they so often do - like they wanted to pair Shinichi and Kaito but didn't want it to be gay, or worse yet, suddenly Shinichi won't be interested in Ran anymore. Genitalia doesn't determine your sexuality. Genitalia doesn't determine your gender either. Other things that piss me off is the really weirdly stereotypical caricatures of gender that they'll show, because they've never actually thought about it. They never consider body dysmorphic disorder, which comes with having a body that doesn't match what the brain thinks should be there. They're more concerned with "wacky hijinks" involving the minor inconveniences associated with certain bodyparts than what it'd actually be like. They should talk to transpeople about it. They are people who have actually experienced it. The double-take that someone does when looking at an old ID, the confusion with names and pronouns, being humiliated by asshole strangers who want you to fit into a tidy bianary, the feeling like no matter what gender you dress as you're an imposter. But, I guess when you're writing a self-insert fantasy where you're a super special awesome detective and all of the boys lurv you, these un-fun realities are not what you want to think about. The thing is, I do think that this could make for some great fanfics. But so few people care to know anything about gender that I doubt I'll get to see very many. Has anyone else noticed that Ran and Makoto's personalities are almost identical? Sonoko has a type...
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Post by boogum on May 9, 2016 20:34:38 GMT
I'm sort of drunk on sleepiness, so this is not going to be eloquent, but I want to say 'hear, hear' to your post, Ichthy. I completely agree with you about Sonoko and Ran, though I do feel that Shinichi would not be as close to Sonoko as he is to Ran. I think they would always come head to head to a point, though they would be good friends underneath all that. And, yes, I suspect there would be a bit more understanding there in terms of how the girls (and female things) are portrayed through his/her point of view.
Honestly, I think the main thing is just that basic character traits are retained, otherwise what's the point of making Shinichi female in the first place? Might as well just write from an OC or other female character's perspective if the core character that is Shinichi is going to be completely changed during the transition from male to female.
Also, I'd totally read that gender-swap fic.
Edit: lots of posts while I was slow writing.
I'm aware of dysmorphic disorder, though I probably should research it a little more. My fic is set as humour, but I also said right from the beginning it was never going to be complete crack, because real issues and angst are bound to occur in such a situation.
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TinyTantei
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Post by TinyTantei on May 9, 2016 20:36:28 GMT
Me: edits my reply and sees that you already beat me to it, haha. But yeah, these are actual problems and while fanfiction is fanfiction and in no way a realistic depiction of the real world (actually an excuse I've seen a lot of people use in response to being told that their work is harmful/stigmatizes people [stares into the sunset]), it's important to know that you're going to make an impression on somebody, and that you need to take into consideration that fiction is something of a reflection on how you perceive the real world (even if it's not a complete reflection). It's best to cover all of your bases and make sure you understand how a system works, be that system sexuality, gender, etc.
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Post by ichthyophobia on May 9, 2016 21:06:38 GMT
That's frankly one of the reasons I'm afraid to write about this kind of stuff, honestly. I always try to get stuff right with my research, but normally it's not that big of a deal if I get something wrong. But with gender identity and sexuality kind of stuff, it just seems a minefield of things that can genuinely hurt people. There's an enormous amount of research I'd have to do before even starting, and even then I'd likely get something wrong, just because I have pretty much no personal experience. So if I ever did write a gender-swap fic, I'd probably be too scared to post it.
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Taliya
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Post by Taliya on May 9, 2016 21:13:57 GMT
I'm with you, Ichthy. I prefer to do my research and get it right, and gender and sexuality seem like such daunting things to broach, especially if one hasn't been exposed to it firsthand. I don't have close friends who identify as _________ other than what they were born like, so I prefer to not touch the topic as I know for sure I'm likely to screw up seven ways to Sunday. Platonic is my... well, since I'm Chinese, curry and rice instead of bread and butter. XD
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Post by dreamingfifi on May 9, 2016 21:15:55 GMT
That's frankly one of the reasons I'm afraid to write about this kind of stuff, honestly. I always try to get stuff right with my research, but normally it's not that big of a deal if I get something wrong. But with gender identity and sexuality kind of stuff, it just seems a minefield of things that can genuinely hurt people. There's an enormous amount of research I'd have to do before even starting, and even then I'd likely get something wrong, just because I have pretty much no personal experience. So if I ever did write a gender-swap fic, I'd probably be too scared to post it. The way around that is to get to know some people who do have to deal with this stuff on a day-to-day basis and share your story with them before showing the rest of the world. That's usually the best thing to do when you're dealing with any topic that you have no familiarity with, and it's just like getting your story beta read for plot-holes.
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Post by boogum on May 9, 2016 21:19:31 GMT
Not to sound dismissive (and I really do mean that), but I think there comes a point where you can't tiptoe around issues - especially with fiction. I think it's important to be aware of the hurt that could be inflicted if certain scenarios are handled indelicately or with blatant flippancy and disregard for the reality of certain situations. However, fiction shouldn't be contained within 'you can only do this' or 'you can only do that', because Shinichi just being a kid with still his teenage mind and memories should have messed him up in a much more serious way than we ever see, not to mention every body swap or transformation story ever.
I'm not sure if I'm making sense (still half asleep and answering phone calls every odd second), but I guess I feel that fiction does have a little leeway in terms of how deep you want to delve into certain issues/scenarios. Does that mean it should all be glossed over? Nope, because that would be stupid. I just don't think everything needs to be political/social justice piece either. Plus, even humour can be used as a way to make people think.
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TinyTantei
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Post by TinyTantei on May 9, 2016 21:27:41 GMT
You didn't sound dismissive at all, don't worry.
But yeah, it's less "don't say something offensive!" as much as it is "remember that these things exist!" That in and of itself is so much more than people even consider.
When I was talking about harmful/stigmatizing fanfiction, I wasn't really talking about this topic whatsoever. I've had......disputes.......with people over how their fanfics glamorize sexual assault/mental illness white-knighting being used as a romantic trope in an extremely unhealthy way. But that's not the topic of this thread, so!
That aside, acknowledgement is basically what I was going for.
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Post by ichthyophobia on May 9, 2016 21:29:43 GMT
Yeah, Boogum, I hear you with that. I think it's kind of a balance between painstakingly researched accuracy and actual representation sometimes? Like, if we expect all media about transgender people to be written by transgender people or people with close or firsthand experience with dysphoria, then there's honestly not going to be much out there and that might contribute to some feelings of alienation.
Like, it's like with the Daredevil comics - like, yes, most of what Daredevil (who's blind, for anyone not familiar with the character) does is impossible for real-world blind people. (Frankly most of it's impossible for real-world sighted people.) But a lot of blind people actually really liked him. Like, it was representation, and it didn't have to be perfect, because there was a superhero that was like them.
(Sorry if I'm inadvertently using offensive terms, by the way - like I said, needs research.)
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Post by dreamingfifi on May 9, 2016 21:32:13 GMT
I'm not saying "You can only do this" though... I'm saying it's polite/a good idea/you could learn some fascinating things along the way/meet some cool people.
There is a certain point that you have to declare to yourself, however, I don't know what more I can do, time to just go for it, and let people respond to it, and learn from their response. We're always figuring out these boundaries like we're fumbling blindly into walls in the dark. It's just a good idea to have your arms out, finding those walls before you brain yourself on them.
BTW, boogum, I read your fanfic, and I like it so far!
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Post by boogum on May 9, 2016 21:50:02 GMT
I knew what you meant, Dreaming. And thanks. ^__^
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Taliya
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Post by Taliya on May 9, 2016 22:22:31 GMT
I'm just basking in the discussion. I've never really thought too hard about writing non-cisgendered, heterosexual people, so this thread has been crazy informative for me.
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