Pandora, Diamonds, Gemstones
Dec 6, 2014 21:41:36 GMT
Nikudou Natsumi and StarlightDragons like this
Post by Crimson Amarone on Dec 6, 2014 21:41:36 GMT
This is some discussion from the chatbox that I thought would be really handy for writing about gemstones or Pandora for MK fics.
StarlightDragons: //casually googles whether or not a diamond can break from a bullet//
StarlightDragons: apparently that's a yes O.o diamond's hard, but brittle, and will shatter... well you learn something new everyday I guess XD
nikudounatsumi: wow . . . don't use diamond as a bullet-proof covering then
StarlightDragons: also means that even if pandora is the hardest rock on the earth Kaito still has a shot at breaking it without having to run over to a diamond-cutting facility or something XD
nikudounatsumi: Lol, that's true. I hadn't thought of that XD
nikudounatsumi: "It's . . . SHOWTIIIIME!!!" Sorry, just thinking of the trailer again . . .
StarlightDragons: That was the chilling part, and coincidentally also my favorite part XD
nikudounatsumi: Exactly what I was thinking XD
Crimson Amarone: Heh, and good toss to the ground could even break it if hit cracks along a fault line. It's not that likely, but it could technically happen. If you smash a diamond with a hammer it will more likely shatter. An imperfect diamond and enough force is all.
StarlightDragons: You'd think the "hardest" material wouldn't be quite that brittle XD but it makes sense.
StarlightDragons: Hypothetically, does that mean that if there was a spherical diamond, it would break less easily than your stereotypical shape?
ichthyophobia: depends on the pressure, probably?
ichthyophobia: and the location of the hit.
ichthyophobia: the thing about gemstones is they all have a natural crystal structure and a natural cleavage. diamonds are tetrahedral, so it'd be hard to cut one as a perfect sphere.
ichthyophobia: ...also the fact that they're the only covalently-bonded gemstone. which is the reason for their hardness! they're not ionic like most stones are. Which is fun because that means a diamond gemstone is actually a molecule that's visible to the naked eye.
ichthyophobia: but anyway, if you hit it along a cleavage plane, it would still shatter easily. the thing about a spherical one is you wouldn't be able to tell where the cleavage planes were.
StarlightDragons: ah, that makes sense ^_^ thanks!
ichthyophobia: most gemstones used for jewelry are cut in a way that it's hard to shatter them. if you strike the top face of a diamond, sure, you can cleave it, but most accidental strikes are on an edge.
ichthyophobia: the slant on the facets of the crown and pavilion mean that most hits glance off.
ichthyophobia: that's one reason you normally don't see square cuts!
ichthyophobia: those corners are very easy to damage, especially on softer gems.
ichthyophobia: and even on a diamond a hit in the wrong place can be a disaster. the rounder the stone's face is, the less corners there are to hit.
ichthyophobia: so the hypothetical spherical diamond would probably be pretty durable except for a direct hit.
ichthyophobia: this is also assuming no inclusions.
ichthyophobia: relevant to most of our interests, presumably the inner stone of pandora is different from the outer stone. that's what's called a crystal inclusion. NOT a doublet. (pet peeve).
ichthyophobia: but the cleavage of the inner stone would be different from the outer one. so a hit that destroyed the outer stone might leave the inner one intact!
ichthyophobia: the force would move through the material differently.
ichthyophobia: ...anyway, shutting up now. I kind of really like gemstones.
nikudounatsumi: It's really interesting, though. So then if that's a crystal inclusion, what IS a doublet?
StarlightDragons: no, it's super helpful, thanks so much!
StarlightDragons: I'm guessing a doublet is a gem in a gem, but they're the same type...?
ichthyophobia: Nope, no no no no. A doublet is an artificial combination. A type of fake!
ichthyophobia: you'll have a slice of one stone as the crown, attached to another type of stone or colored glass as the pavilion.
nikudounatsumi: hmm, interesting
ichthyophobia: you see them legitimately a lot with opals. Opals are super fragile, so what they do for jewelry is a thin slice of jewel with rock crystal on top. the rock crystal protects and magnifies the opal so it can be used in jewelry.
ichthyophobia: the opals in kid's nightmare case were a rare exception as solid opal. but you saw how careful everyone had to be with those! Doublets are more common because they're more usable.
ichthyophobia: but before synthetic gemstones were possible, almost all colored fakes were doublets.
ichthyophobia: what you'd have would be a garnet crown with a colored glass base.
ichthyophobia: garnet is hard and common, so it's cheap and durable. it has a vitreous luster like a lot of precious gems (not diamond, that's what's called adamantine luster), and it'd show the color of the glass beneath it through its own red color.
ichthyophobia: so if you paired a garnet top with a green glass base, what you'd have would probably pass for an emerald.
nikudounatsumi: cool
ichthyophobia: so pandora is a very different thing from a doublet.
StarlightDragons: ah, i see.
ichthyophobia: You can also have a triplet, with three layers. With opal, that's when a dark stone layer is placed beneath the opal layer to make the opal's color seem deeper, which raises the value. You don't normally see it in transparent gemstones, though.
ichthyophobia: Gemstones are one of the topics that i have a hard time shutting up about.
nikudounatsumi: But given the fact that Pandora is a crystal inclusion (that's what it's called, right?), it's definitely helpful. Especially if you want to create fanfictions about it XD
ichthyophobia: typically you'd refer to it in as specific terms as possible. example, pyrite in quartz.
nikudounatsumi: Although we don't know what either gem is, so I guess we can't be that specific.
ichthyophobia: though obviously with pandora that'd be hard, since we have no idea what that inner gem is.
ichthyophobia: magic in diamond?
Crimson Amarone: well, we don't know what the outside is either
ichthyophobia: though i'm almost convinced pandora can't be a diamond. It probably will be a diamond, because fiction, but i don't think it'd logically be one
considering how it had to form.
ichthyophobia: just like i don't think pandora would actually be that attractive of a gemstone. but it probably will be because fiction!
Crimson Amarone: Dunno, Kid has gone after anything and everything, so you never know.
Crimson Amarone: So, what do you think it might be? (besides magic in diamond hehe)
nikudounatsumi: Lol, anime is outside all standards. Though detective anime has some restrictions to it. Not enough to prevent a teenager from turning into a little kid though, apparently XD
ichthyophobia: Logically? If there's no magic involved, I would guess pearl or amber.
ichthyophobia: those two are the only ones that don't require high heat to form. If the inner gem is bio-active, high heat would destroy it.
nikudounatsumi: Is there anything that looks one color but when the light glances of it in a particular way looks another color?
ichthyophobia: ...everything?
nikudounatsumi: I mean like two completely different colors. Or maybe clear to another color, specifically red XD
ichthyophobia: are you referring to refraction or dichroism or what?
ichthyophobia: oh, yeah. lots of stuff.
Crimson Amarone: Huh amber and pearl is interesting because both aren't normal gemstones...
ichthyophobia: they're classified that way!
ichthyophobia: organic gemstones. since they've both been used as jewelry.
ichthyophobia: anyway, in terms of types of light, there's lots of stuff that changes.
ichthyophobia: UV's your biggest culprit here. For example, the hope diamond turns bright red under UV.
ichthyophobia: Lots of stuff changes color under UV, though, and UV is not a component of moonlight!
ichthyophobia: and then you have alexandrite. They already used that in the show! Kid vs Matoko. It changes from green to red depending on the type of light.
Crimson Amarone: There's been a few color changing jewels so far. What a tease Gosho...
ichthyophobia: This is because not all white light is the same white light! Everything absorbs specific wavelengths, and so what's left after absorption determines the color we see.
ichthyophobia: but i think what we're actually looking for is fluorescence, and you almost always need UV to get that.
nikudounatsumi: So then, theoretically, if moonlight had the same type of light as in fire, and if it were to be used more than once, Pandora could be
Alexandrite in Emerald? Theoretically
ichthyophobia: well, there's one more thing you have to consider with pandora here.
ichthyophobia: we have to assume that the color we're seeing is the observed color. That is, once it's been filtered through the outer stone!
nikudounatsumi: That's true . . .
ichthyophobia: the outer stone is going to have its own absorbance. so either it needs to be weakly colored, same-colored, or not colored at all.
nikudounatsumi: But red's a primary color, isn't it? Is there anything that could be combined with another color to make red?
ichthyophobia: ...this is where things get complicated.
nikudounatsumi: lol
ichthyophobia: actually i guess they got complicated a while back.
ichthyophobia: ever wonder why screens are in RGB? red-green-blue?
ichthyophobia: the blending of light is different than the blending of paint.
nikudounatsumi: Oh, yes, I forgot about that XD Geez, things are so complicated . . .
ichthyophobia: though if you wanted pandora to be an emerald, that wouldn't be a super huge problem, though. some things only absorb very narrow bands of light. so if pandora was putting off a wider spectra, it would just have to absorb enough bands to make it appear red
ichthyophobia: i can't say that i have absorbance spectra memorized, though, so i couldn't tell you what would be likely there.
ichthyophobia: But if pandora's light were a combination of wavelengths that appeared yellow, if the outer stone absorbed the green, it would appear red.
ichthyophobia: mixing light is subtractive rather than additive.
nikudounatsumi: *eyes spin*
ichthyophobia: or pandora's actual light could appear white! if the other wavelengths were absorbed, again, red.
ichthyophobia: i'm unaware of any gemstones that fluoresce when exposed to non-UV wavelengths, though, so it's either completely unique or magic.
ichthyophobia: ...likely magic.
nikudounatsumi: *sighs*
ichthyophobia: ...Sorry. I'll stop.
ichthyophobia: (it's more complicated than this, i just realized. refraction plays into it too.)
nikudounatsumi: the rest of me will spin if you keep going into this, so I think I'll just wait for Aoyama-sensei instead of trying to figure out Pandora . . .
Crimson Amarone: Hehe, I don't think he even had an idea when he started. Maybe by now he goes, but we'll just have to see. That or if A1 is coming up with something on their own. I'd imagine they'd consult with him on stuff like that though.
ichthyophobia: In fictionland it's probably going to be a very high value diamond with perfect refraction and no doubling to indicate the inclusion that's been appraised multiple times with nobody noticing anything odd about it!
StarlightDragons: apparently that's a yes O.o diamond's hard, but brittle, and will shatter... well you learn something new everyday I guess XD
nikudounatsumi: wow . . . don't use diamond as a bullet-proof covering then
StarlightDragons: also means that even if pandora is the hardest rock on the earth Kaito still has a shot at breaking it without having to run over to a diamond-cutting facility or something XD
nikudounatsumi: Lol, that's true. I hadn't thought of that XD
nikudounatsumi: "It's . . . SHOWTIIIIME!!!" Sorry, just thinking of the trailer again . . .
StarlightDragons: That was the chilling part, and coincidentally also my favorite part XD
nikudounatsumi: Exactly what I was thinking XD
Crimson Amarone: Heh, and good toss to the ground could even break it if hit cracks along a fault line. It's not that likely, but it could technically happen. If you smash a diamond with a hammer it will more likely shatter. An imperfect diamond and enough force is all.
StarlightDragons: You'd think the "hardest" material wouldn't be quite that brittle XD but it makes sense.
StarlightDragons: Hypothetically, does that mean that if there was a spherical diamond, it would break less easily than your stereotypical shape?
ichthyophobia: depends on the pressure, probably?
ichthyophobia: and the location of the hit.
ichthyophobia: the thing about gemstones is they all have a natural crystal structure and a natural cleavage. diamonds are tetrahedral, so it'd be hard to cut one as a perfect sphere.
ichthyophobia: ...also the fact that they're the only covalently-bonded gemstone. which is the reason for their hardness! they're not ionic like most stones are. Which is fun because that means a diamond gemstone is actually a molecule that's visible to the naked eye.
ichthyophobia: but anyway, if you hit it along a cleavage plane, it would still shatter easily. the thing about a spherical one is you wouldn't be able to tell where the cleavage planes were.
StarlightDragons: ah, that makes sense ^_^ thanks!
ichthyophobia: most gemstones used for jewelry are cut in a way that it's hard to shatter them. if you strike the top face of a diamond, sure, you can cleave it, but most accidental strikes are on an edge.
ichthyophobia: the slant on the facets of the crown and pavilion mean that most hits glance off.
ichthyophobia: that's one reason you normally don't see square cuts!
ichthyophobia: those corners are very easy to damage, especially on softer gems.
ichthyophobia: and even on a diamond a hit in the wrong place can be a disaster. the rounder the stone's face is, the less corners there are to hit.
ichthyophobia: so the hypothetical spherical diamond would probably be pretty durable except for a direct hit.
ichthyophobia: this is also assuming no inclusions.
ichthyophobia: relevant to most of our interests, presumably the inner stone of pandora is different from the outer stone. that's what's called a crystal inclusion. NOT a doublet. (pet peeve).
ichthyophobia: but the cleavage of the inner stone would be different from the outer one. so a hit that destroyed the outer stone might leave the inner one intact!
ichthyophobia: the force would move through the material differently.
ichthyophobia: ...anyway, shutting up now. I kind of really like gemstones.
nikudounatsumi: It's really interesting, though. So then if that's a crystal inclusion, what IS a doublet?
StarlightDragons: no, it's super helpful, thanks so much!
StarlightDragons: I'm guessing a doublet is a gem in a gem, but they're the same type...?
ichthyophobia: Nope, no no no no. A doublet is an artificial combination. A type of fake!
ichthyophobia: you'll have a slice of one stone as the crown, attached to another type of stone or colored glass as the pavilion.
nikudounatsumi: hmm, interesting
ichthyophobia: you see them legitimately a lot with opals. Opals are super fragile, so what they do for jewelry is a thin slice of jewel with rock crystal on top. the rock crystal protects and magnifies the opal so it can be used in jewelry.
ichthyophobia: the opals in kid's nightmare case were a rare exception as solid opal. but you saw how careful everyone had to be with those! Doublets are more common because they're more usable.
ichthyophobia: but before synthetic gemstones were possible, almost all colored fakes were doublets.
ichthyophobia: what you'd have would be a garnet crown with a colored glass base.
ichthyophobia: garnet is hard and common, so it's cheap and durable. it has a vitreous luster like a lot of precious gems (not diamond, that's what's called adamantine luster), and it'd show the color of the glass beneath it through its own red color.
ichthyophobia: so if you paired a garnet top with a green glass base, what you'd have would probably pass for an emerald.
nikudounatsumi: cool
ichthyophobia: so pandora is a very different thing from a doublet.
StarlightDragons: ah, i see.
ichthyophobia: You can also have a triplet, with three layers. With opal, that's when a dark stone layer is placed beneath the opal layer to make the opal's color seem deeper, which raises the value. You don't normally see it in transparent gemstones, though.
ichthyophobia: Gemstones are one of the topics that i have a hard time shutting up about.
nikudounatsumi: But given the fact that Pandora is a crystal inclusion (that's what it's called, right?), it's definitely helpful. Especially if you want to create fanfictions about it XD
ichthyophobia: typically you'd refer to it in as specific terms as possible. example, pyrite in quartz.
nikudounatsumi: Although we don't know what either gem is, so I guess we can't be that specific.
ichthyophobia: though obviously with pandora that'd be hard, since we have no idea what that inner gem is.
ichthyophobia: magic in diamond?
Crimson Amarone: well, we don't know what the outside is either
ichthyophobia: though i'm almost convinced pandora can't be a diamond. It probably will be a diamond, because fiction, but i don't think it'd logically be one
considering how it had to form.
ichthyophobia: just like i don't think pandora would actually be that attractive of a gemstone. but it probably will be because fiction!
Crimson Amarone: Dunno, Kid has gone after anything and everything, so you never know.
Crimson Amarone: So, what do you think it might be? (besides magic in diamond hehe)
nikudounatsumi: Lol, anime is outside all standards. Though detective anime has some restrictions to it. Not enough to prevent a teenager from turning into a little kid though, apparently XD
ichthyophobia: Logically? If there's no magic involved, I would guess pearl or amber.
ichthyophobia: those two are the only ones that don't require high heat to form. If the inner gem is bio-active, high heat would destroy it.
nikudounatsumi: Is there anything that looks one color but when the light glances of it in a particular way looks another color?
ichthyophobia: ...everything?
nikudounatsumi: I mean like two completely different colors. Or maybe clear to another color, specifically red XD
ichthyophobia: are you referring to refraction or dichroism or what?
ichthyophobia: oh, yeah. lots of stuff.
Crimson Amarone: Huh amber and pearl is interesting because both aren't normal gemstones...
ichthyophobia: they're classified that way!
ichthyophobia: organic gemstones. since they've both been used as jewelry.
ichthyophobia: anyway, in terms of types of light, there's lots of stuff that changes.
ichthyophobia: UV's your biggest culprit here. For example, the hope diamond turns bright red under UV.
ichthyophobia: Lots of stuff changes color under UV, though, and UV is not a component of moonlight!
ichthyophobia: and then you have alexandrite. They already used that in the show! Kid vs Matoko. It changes from green to red depending on the type of light.
Crimson Amarone: There's been a few color changing jewels so far. What a tease Gosho...
ichthyophobia: This is because not all white light is the same white light! Everything absorbs specific wavelengths, and so what's left after absorption determines the color we see.
ichthyophobia: but i think what we're actually looking for is fluorescence, and you almost always need UV to get that.
nikudounatsumi: So then, theoretically, if moonlight had the same type of light as in fire, and if it were to be used more than once, Pandora could be
Alexandrite in Emerald? Theoretically
ichthyophobia: well, there's one more thing you have to consider with pandora here.
ichthyophobia: we have to assume that the color we're seeing is the observed color. That is, once it's been filtered through the outer stone!
nikudounatsumi: That's true . . .
ichthyophobia: the outer stone is going to have its own absorbance. so either it needs to be weakly colored, same-colored, or not colored at all.
nikudounatsumi: But red's a primary color, isn't it? Is there anything that could be combined with another color to make red?
ichthyophobia: ...this is where things get complicated.
nikudounatsumi: lol
ichthyophobia: actually i guess they got complicated a while back.
ichthyophobia: ever wonder why screens are in RGB? red-green-blue?
ichthyophobia: the blending of light is different than the blending of paint.
nikudounatsumi: Oh, yes, I forgot about that XD Geez, things are so complicated . . .
ichthyophobia: though if you wanted pandora to be an emerald, that wouldn't be a super huge problem, though. some things only absorb very narrow bands of light. so if pandora was putting off a wider spectra, it would just have to absorb enough bands to make it appear red
ichthyophobia: i can't say that i have absorbance spectra memorized, though, so i couldn't tell you what would be likely there.
ichthyophobia: But if pandora's light were a combination of wavelengths that appeared yellow, if the outer stone absorbed the green, it would appear red.
ichthyophobia: mixing light is subtractive rather than additive.
nikudounatsumi: *eyes spin*
ichthyophobia: or pandora's actual light could appear white! if the other wavelengths were absorbed, again, red.
ichthyophobia: i'm unaware of any gemstones that fluoresce when exposed to non-UV wavelengths, though, so it's either completely unique or magic.
ichthyophobia: ...likely magic.
nikudounatsumi: *sighs*
ichthyophobia: ...Sorry. I'll stop.
ichthyophobia: (it's more complicated than this, i just realized. refraction plays into it too.)
nikudounatsumi: the rest of me will spin if you keep going into this, so I think I'll just wait for Aoyama-sensei instead of trying to figure out Pandora . . .
Crimson Amarone: Hehe, I don't think he even had an idea when he started. Maybe by now he goes, but we'll just have to see. That or if A1 is coming up with something on their own. I'd imagine they'd consult with him on stuff like that though.
ichthyophobia: In fictionland it's probably going to be a very high value diamond with perfect refraction and no doubling to indicate the inclusion that's been appraised multiple times with nobody noticing anything odd about it!