neonquincy1217
God
Note to self: Be kind to yourself. Be patient. Embrace the random. Life is not instant noodles. :))
Posts: 1,339
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Post by neonquincy1217 on Aug 28, 2015 4:58:41 GMT
So, as some of you might know... or of ever you guys have stumbled upon my ffnet page... I'm writing a multichaptered fanfic entitled "Welcome to your Nightmare, Hakuba Saguru!" featuring, of course, MK's resident detective, Hakuba Saguru, Kuroba Kaito, Koizumi Akako and the specials-only character, Gunter von Goldberg a.k.a. Spider. I created this story cos it felt like Spider didn't get enough exposure in the specials and I think it's kind of a sad thing, really. He could've had a potential huge role in MK if he became canon (but hey, he didn't did he? ) In case anyone here's following the story (which btw is only updated til chapter1... until now, which is a bummer actually), I already have the plot figured out and am worrying about a tiny thing which will prove major in the story... What could be Hakuba's greatest fear? Just a quick summary: One night during a Kid heist, where the illusionist assassin, Spider, is expected to make appearance, Hakuba got caught up in said killer's illusions, with Kid saving his hide just as he was about to self-destruct. Ultimately, Spider makes his escape and Kid retreats, leaving a little note to the detective about "giving him time to recuperate". Since then, Saguru has been plagued by the Nightmare (for now the only thing we all know is that it involves Akako somehow). He confronts Kaito the day after, asking about illusions and telling him it scared him, to which the magician replied "there is no such thing as virtual fear" and that if it worries him so much, he should go ahead and look for solution/conquer that fear ("Isn't that what living is about?"). I'd like to incorporate something rooted to Haku-chan's possible childhood... or something he fears, plus what Spider showed Akako in the specials... something which may lead Haku-chan to finding out about Akako being a witch (of course leaving the detective skeptic so he decides to confront her, but that's another thing...) So, yeah. I need help... What do you guys think is Hakuba's greatest fear/nightmare? Or if ever you give him one, what would it be? (cos seriously, I'm stuck, but I want this fic up and over with! XD) Thanks in advance! ^^;
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Post by Alisa Yang on Aug 28, 2015 5:35:07 GMT
If I gave him one it probably would be something along the lines of incompetence. The guy is seriously smug about how good he is. If he somehow lost all that I think he'd have issues. Imagine if Hakuba had something that caused his memory or cognitive abilities to deteriorate. He's a detective. How can he detect if he can't even convince his brain to work?
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Post by Mikauzoran on Aug 28, 2015 11:51:05 GMT
Well, I don't know how you could incorporate Akako, but maybe for this fic Haku-chan's fear could be failure. I think, as detectives, a lot of the boys could potentially fear messing up and having someone lose their life because of it. Hope that helps somewhat. :/
Another option could be that no one needs him, that he doesn't have a place where he belongs and that he could easily be replaced by someone better, smarter...like Shinichi. But my interpretation of Hakuba usually is really insecure, so....
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neonquincy1217
God
Note to self: Be kind to yourself. Be patient. Embrace the random. Life is not instant noodles. :))
Posts: 1,339
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Post by neonquincy1217 on Aug 28, 2015 13:32:44 GMT
Hmm... all that could potentially cause him to have inner battles (oh poor Haku-chan), something that would go beyond the amount of time Spider allows his victims to live... same goes for what I just thought of, about fearing that things which could challenge his beliefs may affect him somehow... (ooh, and what better way than to show him witchcraft or something along those lines? :3) I thought of that one too, Mikau, Saguru fearing not being able to save a life or something. And you suggested something wonderful too, Alisa It's just all too... how do I say it... kind of... difficult(?) to make connection with the five senses? I mean, we're talking of illusions/hypnosis. Dunno where I got the idea from but for someone to fall into one means one's mind/psyche would have to be entertaining or at the very least open to suggestions that the illusionist shows/says. Snake's statement, itself, "Welcome to your nightmare," suggests things they see are not real, but how can something unreal still cause people under his nightmare their possible deaths? By triggering the fear receptors, maybe? or pain? or through something they hear and see? Looking back to the specials, both Kaito and Akako in their nightmares experienced something involving the senses, with Kaito falling off a cliff and Akako getting tied up and burned at stake respectively. I don't know how to make that work with Saguru's nightmare... should I have those fears materialize in a form of a person or a thing and drive him to a mental breakdown? Wonder what kind of thing that would be... (That's probably it, ne? Should I just make these fears materialize in some kind of form in his nightmare? *tilts head*) Also, how do we kill him? O_______O Additionally, effects of hypnosis vary from person to person. How I understood it, those who are mentally strong are more prone to hypnosis, contrary to the popular belief that the mentally weak are more prone to it. Also, I think there are ways (still don't know them so I'm gonna make some more research) to repel them (LOL, made me think of Harry Potter and Occlumency xD). Saguru is, as I believe, a mentally strong person and would therefore be more affected by the illusion, which would explain his distress the day after... ... I... got lost... I had a point. I can't remember... *thinks* But yeah, I plan to present Saguru an illusion so real-looking, so real-feeling(LOLWHAT?), so rooted to his greatest fear; he won't be getting any sleep...
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Post by ichthyophobia on Aug 28, 2015 15:48:49 GMT
Well, this isn't exactly how the show presented it, but as I understand it, most real-life examples of hypnosis or implanted memory work by using pieces and parts of real memories or their own imagination, like how some horror novels will suggest parts of a monster and let your mind fill in the gaps. Which is why people with better memories/stronger logical abilities could be more sensitive to it; their minds can conjure something much more real.
As to what Hakuba would see, I think his would be a little bit more subtle rather than the immediately horrific things that Akako and Kaito saw? He's so logically oriented that I think a failure of logic would unnerve him more than an immediate threat. (I kind of get the feeling that in times of crisis, he pretty much shuts down his emotions, so anything trying to get an immediate emotional rise out of him won't work as well.) So I think things better than people would work to drive him crazy. For example, a corpse where the clues don't match or make sense, or where things change when he looks away so any deduction he makes of it is nonsense, or seeing a crime happen (especially to someone he cares about) and then the evidence not matching up to what he saw. It could take him a few minutes to realize that he was in a nightmare, that way, and depending on how realistic of details his mind provides, with something subtle like that he might not realize when he's gotten out. Something with the sort of details or fears he deals with in every day life is going to stick with him a lot longer than something he can obviously dismiss. (Also, that way every time something in his life doesn't add up, he's immediately going to wonder if he's still trapped in the nightmare.)
In terms of neuroscience, there's no such thing as a fear receptor. Fear happens more through the amygdala and the sympathetic nervous system (which handles the fight-or-flight response), plus various hormones (cortisol, epinephrine/adrenaline), and just straight up fear can't actually kill you in the absence of other medical conditions. For example, the rise in blood pressure under the sudden stress could cause a heart attack or an aneurysm. I think more how Spider "kills" people is to make them lose their grasp on the real world enough that they accidentally cause injury to themselves, or can no longer defend themselves from his needles. For example, trying to run away from something that isn't real, and running off a cliff you didn't know was there.
I think it's probably worth mentioning that I don't think Spider has a lot of control over what people see. He can definitely give impressions of things consciously or subconsciously, like his mask reminds people of a spider, but I think because most of the details are provided by the mind of the victim he can't fully control it.
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neonquincy1217
God
Note to self: Be kind to yourself. Be patient. Embrace the random. Life is not instant noodles. :))
Posts: 1,339
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Post by neonquincy1217 on Aug 28, 2015 16:09:14 GMT
(Fear receptor... haha I knew something was wrong with that phrase XD) Ooh, that's very helpful, ichthy... What I immediately thought of? A labyrinth... or a maze... or some setting like the inside of Yugi's Millenium Puzzle... and-and... every thing he finds makes no sense whatsoever... Will that help?
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Post by ichthyophobia on Aug 28, 2015 16:50:08 GMT
If that's what you want to do, sure, though there would have to be significant suggestions made to get Hakuba's brain to conjure up something like that. And I'd be wary of having nothing at all make sense. If the entire world is nonsense, then he can easily dismiss it as "this whole thing is a dream/nightmare/illusion" and ignore it.
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neonquincy1217
God
Note to self: Be kind to yourself. Be patient. Embrace the random. Life is not instant noodles. :))
Posts: 1,339
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Post by neonquincy1217 on Aug 28, 2015 17:07:13 GMT
That is true... yeah, I'll be careful
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neonquincy1217
God
Note to self: Be kind to yourself. Be patient. Embrace the random. Life is not instant noodles. :))
Posts: 1,339
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Post by neonquincy1217 on Sept 2, 2015 14:43:29 GMT
Oh, just to be safe. Follow-up question... Does physical exhaustion play a part in this?
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Post by ichthyophobia on Sept 2, 2015 15:51:28 GMT
"This" being...? Are you referring to the initial hypnotism, or the longer-term effect of not being able to sleep?
If you're referring to the initial hypnotism, I'd be inclined to say no. Not having slept is not the same thing as being tired after running or something similar; the brain uses sleep to reset and rebuild its supply of neurotransmitters. So if he's jet lagged or actually sleep deprived, that could make him more susceptible to suggestion, but if you're talking about him being just being post-chased-Kaito-Kid-all-over-creation tired, then no. The fight-or-flight response and adrenaline have some interesting effects on the brain, and it could be useful for Spider's actual purpose - making people react in ways that lead to their injury or death - but it's more a matter of heightened senses and increased response time (coupled with a decrease in thinking through actions) than it is of generating actual fear.
As far as the long term effect of not being able to sleep... yes, probably. A lack of sleep will cause something that feels similar to the physical exhaustion created by running or whatever, since the synapses that run the arms and legs (and the nerves in the arms and legs) haven't had a chance to recharge; hence why it's actually physically harder to move when you're tired. Plus, not sleeping for a few days can actually induce hallucinations even in neurotypical people (though it's much more pronounced in people with certain psychological disorders) which I think in the context of your story is going to compound the effect.
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Post by Mikauzoran on Sept 3, 2015 0:40:09 GMT
This is all super interesting. Ichthy, where do you learn all of this stuff? What books do you read or what articles or what podcasts do you listen to? I'm super interested in reading about stuff like this in order to create more realistic fiction, but I never know where to go to obtain knowledge like you have.
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Post by ichthyophobia on Sept 3, 2015 0:57:48 GMT
Most of what I've said here I've learned via asking questions in doctors offices and hospitals over the years, plus the actual biology and anatomy classes I took in college. Also I read wikipedia for fun. I'll reference old textbooks every once in a while, but I'm constantly having to check to make sure I haven't remembered stuff wrong.
But that said, I don't actually know as much as I seem to! Basically the knowledge that I actually have is sort of a skeleton, which gives me a basic direction and keywords to do actual research. Whenever you see me answering a question like this, it's typically because I've done 10-20 minutes of online research just to make sure I'm not leading anyone wrong.
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Post by Mikauzoran on Sept 3, 2015 1:05:27 GMT
Fair enough. Thanks anyway! I'll have to poke around online then. Do you just google, or are there specific databases where you research besides wikipedia?
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Post by ichthyophobia on Sept 3, 2015 1:37:58 GMT
Google scholar will typically give you primary sources, which are great and very informative if you have the background knowledge needed to read them. WebMD is good sometimes, though it's more concerned with symptoms than with pathology, and hardly ever with death or post-death trauma. One thing that almost nobody without a chemistry degree knows about is that every chemical on the market has an MSDS detailing its LD50 (lethal dose 50%, or how large of a dose it takes to kill you 50% of the time) and appropriate treatment options. Just google "chemical name MSDS", and it'll typically be a PDF. If you don't have first aid/CPR, taking a class in that will give you a basic idea of how to respond to and treat quite a few injuries, which I've always found to be super-helpful background knowledge. Wikihow is useful as well, though as with wiki-anything, double check anything that doesn't look right. Also, a helpful trick to Wikipedia: scroll down to the bottom of the page, and hey look, sources! A lot of times they're books, but I've managed to find a lot of primary-source articles and good review articles that way. In general, though, if you're waiting until you're trying to write about a subject to try to research about that subject, you're going to have a harder time. In general, if you encounter something you don't know, either ask questions (because people talking about a subject are usually happy to answer!) or look it up. Read wide, read weird, research everything. If you have a broad knowledge-base to start from, you at minimum have better keywords to punch into Google, and you can put together information from different sources in your head rather than relying all on one source to know everything.
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Post by Mikauzoran on Sept 3, 2015 1:53:42 GMT
Thanks, Ichthy! <3
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