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Post by StarlightDragons on May 3, 2015 16:55:21 GMT
oh, good points. //nods// I see what you mean, and I agree. so just because they're not anokata doesn't mean they aren't connected to the BO, huh? going to keep that in mind XD
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Post by StarlightDragons on May 7, 2015 16:34:33 GMT
Vermouth's a bit edging towards the grey, isn't she? since she's trying to protect conan and all. or - actually no, that doesn't count because she's protecting him for personal reasons. never mind XD yes, but considering the number of murders we come across on an apparently daily basis, there are a some bad, "evil" characters that start out acting not that terrible. I see your point, though.
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Post by House of Mystery on May 8, 2015 0:40:46 GMT
I dunno... Conan runs in Shonen Sunday, and that magazine (despite its reputation as the kiddie pool of Shonen in Japan) has ran some really fucked-up shit in the past. Ranma One-Half was essentially the Japanese Family Guy, with every one of the protagonists an unrepentant asshole that just happened to have a handful of likable traits every now and then.
And Gosho's done bad cops before. Hell, the latest Nagano arc was all about dirty cops, and there've been a few AOs with bad-apple policemen in the past. He's done unrepentant psychos, too - like the drug-smuggling librarian and the crazy arsonist from Metropolitan Police Detective Love Story III. Even the murderer from the bandaged man murder case kinda counts.
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Post by Mikauzoran on May 8, 2015 12:57:12 GMT
Well, I have to say that I like how you've outlined your arguments, and I think did a good job illustrating your points. I'd say more, but I have to run to work now. The short version is that I disagree with you on the whole black and white categorization of the characters. There's a lot of grey in Conan, and that's what makes the story so great, the characters more realistic even if they do have a ways to go.
I, for one, would be really disappointed if Sensei just pulled some really evil person out of nowhere. I'm really hoping it's someone we've met and have some kind of attachment to. It would be more emotionally satisfying that way, and I think that's what Aoyama-sensei cares more about, creating a truly good work of fiction.
Even though Conan does have a substantial young viewership, that's not the majority of the readers. Conan is not a children's cartoon that airs on Saturday or Sunday morning. It's a Saturday night anime. The demographic is a lot larger than just kids that Sensei has to worry about guarding the innocence of. His audience is vast, and as a mangaka, his interest is in appealing to that wide range. Therefore, strategically, he's aiming to please 5-90 year-olds, so the distribution of ages is heavier on the older side of the board.
That said, Sensei has never had a great propensity to protect the children. I honestly don't think he places as much weight on their innocence as your analysis credits him as doing. I think you're looking at this too much from the point of view as children's cartoon and not an anime/manga meant for a wide range of ages.
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Post by StarlightDragons on May 8, 2015 14:15:26 GMT
another point I briefly mentioned but probably not clearly enough - we've had a lot of rather sympathetic murderers that make the watchers tear up, and they're not explicitly evil. It is, of my opinion, that a) murders / crimes in general aren't exactly kid material to begin with, at least not at the rate that Conan and friends keep running into, and b) I don't think that kids must have this super idealistic version of good and evil? Sure, it's common, but I don't think that it's an absolute must.
anyway, I have to agree with mikau and house on this one.
(the note about 5-90 year olds, though - ha! good luck to him with that.)
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Post by StarlightDragons on May 13, 2015 13:00:29 GMT
You said - you wanted it to be mind blowing, not a character pulled out of thin air, yes? Well, we know that the person has been mentioned in name - at least - in the manga, though they haven't appeared before Conan. That, I think, eliminates the probability of it being someone we'd know well, since if we know them well, that usually means that Conan knows them, and they'd have to at least look t each other a couple times.
On a different note, I think I saw someone have a theory about one of the names listed in the 'and then there were no mermaids' episode - and I think I already brought this up a while back? Maybe. Either way, now I'm leaning more towards it because this person hasn't appeared in front of Conan, and yet was mentioned onscreen.
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Post by Mikauzoran on May 14, 2015 19:01:18 GMT
I still really want to see the original Japanese where Sensei says that Anokata has/hasn't appeared before Conan before. Does anyone know where that is?
Japanese language has so many subtleties, and I really want to look at the kanji, the phrasing, to see if I can draw any deeper meaning from the original text. I, for one, believe nothing that I'm told Sensei supposedly said until I see it in Japanese. We're dealing with a veeeery tricky mangaka here, and I will not be trusting what I hear until I read it exactly how he said it in Japanese.
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Post by StarlightDragons on May 14, 2015 22:50:49 GMT
...ach. I don't know if I can find it anymore, it's buried under files and the screaming news of "ran and shinichi meet!!! :DDD", but I'll get back to you on that....
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Post by StarlightDragons on May 15, 2015 16:23:13 GMT
IT TOOK A BIT OF DIGGING BUT!!! source: this post, it has a thing? dunno. but yeah. so maybe it was mistranslated. can you clarify for us, mikau? edit: after a bit more digging I do believe the translation was inaccurate, so! that debunks the debunking. sorry, all~
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Post by Mikauzoran on May 15, 2015 19:40:35 GMT
I love you. Thank you!
So what it says is basically just a summary of what we know about Anokata. Which is nothing besides the mail ado sounding like Nanatsu no Ko. The part that was poorly translated should read something like "they have not revealed themselves in front of Conan."
There are two sticky parts where we could quibble: the use of 姿 and the verb 現す. The former could mean one's physical self or it could carry the connotations of one's true colors. The verb can mean to show, to appear, or to reveal. So while the translation "has not appeared in front of Conan" could be a correct interpretation, it's misleading. The word choice is purposefully vague and misleading.
There are a few interpretations you can take away from this. One, Anokata and Conan have never met face to face (not very likely). Two, they have met, but Anokata did not reveal him/herself as Anokata at that time (more likely). With the way it's written, it could go either way.
And that's my linguistic analysis. As I thought: don't trust anything you hear until you've analyzed the original Japanese. Also, Sensei is such a sneaky troll. I really like the guy. He loves to see us get all riled up. It's hilarious.
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Post by StarlightDragons on May 15, 2015 21:54:58 GMT
I'm pretty sure he did it on purpose, the lovable manipulative jerk. XD thank you! Alright, so that thankfully frees up like 99% of the cast...
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Post by Mikauzoran on May 16, 2015 0:19:16 GMT
Yeah, I was going to be ticked if Anokata ended up being some random guy. I really want it to be someone we think we know and have some kind of attachment to. That would definitely be more emotionally satisfying.
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Post by StarlightDragons on May 16, 2015 1:13:10 GMT
definitely. wait, does anyone have a list of the "sensei confirmed not these people" people?
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Post by randomguy on Jun 4, 2015 4:54:57 GMT
Okay I have been saying this for a while and Now I am going present my arguments in a better organized way and add evidence from the manga. Okay my argument is that the real Sharon Vineyard is the boss of the Black organization. The key to the boss's identity is deeply involved in the mystery of Chris Vineyards supposed unaging. Other than the apotoxin in the beggening which was recently developed and the kicking shoes no other sci fi psuedo physics have ever been used at all in the history of the manga in fact no villian has ever used an inexistant technology. Considering this fact and the fact that a) apotoxin was recently developed and also b)the fact that apotoxin's deaging affect would have been immediatly obvios and there would be no need for investigation if it had happened to a member of the black organization. We can fairly deduce that deaging isn't what occured here nor is it immortality. In the manga Shinichi is 16 years old in the beginning of the series. In the flash back to a year ago he would be 15. There in vol 34 chapter 11 golden apple and Vol 34 chapter 12 . Chris who is taking the role of Sharon reveals that she hasn't seen Chris in over 10 years. Now even though she was simply acting as Sharon this peice of information isn't really suprising it is implied that the general public know of the disagreement between the two. It was also said that sharon was studying under koichi for simmilar reasons to yukiko. Now the final peice of clue stated is that Sharon was the one whom taught chris disguises. This last clue is fairly obvios otherwise the person who taught the disguises koichi would know that Chris was actually Sharon and would be curios and killed off and etc etc. It is also seen in a flashback that while shinichi was 6 years old he had an adventure with ran while yukiko was learning. Now than it can be deduced from a) Sharon was the one who taught disguises to Chris b) She had to see her to teach her c) she didn't see her for 11 years that she taught her disguises before than. It is also stated that Sharon is much better at disguises than yukiko. Finally from this we can say that she could have been studying disguises way before if she embarked on the path of learning disguises from kiochi lets say that she was his apprentice for 10 years I know this seams like a long time but consider that she starts learning does tons of other stuff like her career than for different role excetra learns some more. Also considering that it would be unlikely that the last thing that she did with her daughter was teach her disguises this means that she taught her even before it seems somehow implied that its tenish years. also like I said think of it like a path. So putting all this together 21 years before the start of the story: Sharon begins learning disguising 20 years before the start of the story: Sharon having taught what she learned to her daughter Chris. Chris at 14 or 15 but disguised to be around 10 years older kills Jodies father on Sharon's orders. Next twenty years: Chris plays the role of her mother Sharon for the media and in the movies. Sharon is running the Black Organization and maybe learning from koichi or sending her daughter but if learning than she teaches her daughter. Now: Chris appears to be around the same age as she was when she killed Jodies father. Think about it now if she was disguised to be older than she was to not give off suspision that time and later on Chris not in the public eye except for interviews and movies? than it would be extremely hard to get her real age. She could have been constantly making herself seem older. finally: 25-35 not a lot of aging can be seen. Note:I know that this got super messy again so I dont blame you for not seeing eye to eye. all this means that it is possible however slight that what I have just explained might explain the not aging. remember so far in the story fingerprint = true evidence even shinichi said that it was breathed from heaven therefore it was Chris who committed that crime. Now here is the obvios question why would a young person at the time (14 or 15) take an order to kill someone and why would a proffesional org like the black org hire someone like that? The answer is obvios because the boss is familly. Gosho stated that the boss has never appeared infront of conan and yet the bossess name was mentioned. sharon has never appeared infront of conan as it has been chris acting as sharon. yet her name is mentioned. Gosho also said that he almost revealed the identity of the boss during the new york case when creating the anime. Notice how the new york case's only obvios tie with the black org is sharon/chriss. The identity of the boss is obvios imo. Finally here is something new. The boss was sharon's husband before but he died. That was when sharon to ressurect him began developing the drug this was a departure from the computer science shit that was going on before. Chris also mentions that the drug is something that shouldn't be made. It would fit that her father was the one who actually forced her to be an assassin and kill and generally ruined her life and she isn't too keen on getting him back. Also Chris's relationship with the boss is special is something that everyone knows. Every single clue seems to fit seamlessly if you think that the actual Sharon is the boss. The new york case was obviosly shinichi's first case and something that Gosho had from the beggining. It can be inferred that it is a very relevant case something to pull out before the ending to explain the boss. Everything fits.
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Post by StarlightDragons on Jun 4, 2015 5:39:16 GMT
...when you say "koichi" I'm going to have to assume you mean Toichi, as in Kaito's dad. And what do you mean, "breathed from heaven"...?
And, um. I do see eye to eye? Like, I totally understand what you're getting at. Sure, it's plausible. It could be possible. If you're right, great! Right now, though, I'm reluctant to believe that Sharon and Chris are different people, in the same way I didn't want to believe that Toichi was alive when we got that Kaito Corbeau heist. Or, similar. (I mostly don't like the prior because parental issues, but that's a different topic.) It doesn't feel right? Hm. That, too. It also grates on my nerves, frankly, because it takes away most of what a) the general fandom has considered canon and b) the whole air of mystery around Vermouth. What kind of cop-out is "lol the entire FBI peoples plus Conan are actually wrong, Sharon and Chris just two different peoples ;p"?
Again, it might happen. It's possible. You might be right.
Doesn't mean it's a likeable situation, though.
By the way, Shinichi's first case (by himself, we assume; he's obviously been to other cases with his father, as shown by the cases with the candy/coins that made the character for "death") was the "Locked Room in the Sky" - actually, an argument could be made for that little mini-adventure he had with Ran and Toichi being a troll, since it involves Kaito Kid and a crapton of brainpower. Plus we've now got the pouty frowny preschooler case going on, and who knows how that's going to turn out.
Okay, seeing as it's past 1:30 in the morning for me (...or night, I guess), I'll get back to this after I sleep. Or something.
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